I think it may be a good idea to backcross the F1 with the auto and cross the F1xauto back to the photo. I have a cross I will do, it's an F1 autoXphoto and I don't want to work it further, I may cross it with another auto from there. It's really only two ways to do it, widen the genetic diversity or breed the diversity out of it. I can't see that a predetermined generation will do that in a better way than any other way cause the length of the DNA chain will stay the same.
Backcrossing from f2
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Interesting suggestion, disburped. I am unsure how that would benefit me backcrossing to the auto before backcrossing to the photo. Seems that would increase the amount of genes from the auto rather than reducing them. I want to only ingress the auto trait.
If I
If I decide to grow out more or less 50 seeds:
How much does pot size matter for an open pollination seed run? Should I use solo cups to restrict and speed up the process? Is it better popping seeds in one container? There is more soil in a container than in solo cups for the same ground space, I guess that is one advantage regarding watering, solo cups dry out quickly. I am thinking several two liter juice containers or milk cartons, a better use of space than circular pots or cups. What is the most practical and most common method?
If I decide to grow out more or less 50 seeds:
How much does pot size matter for an open pollination seed run? Should I use solo cups to restrict and speed up the process? Is it better popping seeds in one container? There is more soil in a container than in solo cups for the same ground space, I guess that is one advantage regarding watering, solo cups dry out quickly. I am thinking several two liter juice containers or milk cartons, a better use of space than circular pots or cups. What is the most practical and most common method?
Look at my blog how I did it. I am not a pro cause I just mess around so take what you want from it. Simple math tells me that I can cram more soil into a low space if I don't use pots so I did so with a three layer trash bag size XXL cut up two ways. I have done one grow in it and it works. A cheap moisture meter will show if the soil is too wet, the plants will tell me if it's drought, I would not grow like this without it again. You don't need ceramic spikes or drip irrigation but you have to water carefully cause it will grow slow in wet soil. I did the math and it's a lot of soil in that shallow space, next time I may use a thick layer of clay pebbles in the bottom and fill it up all the way to the air intake, last grow it was mixed with peat and vermiculite, now it's a lot of sand in it.
There is not a correct or incorrect way to work a cross you make. Most will tell you to go with whichever method allows you to grow out the highest number of healthy plants at once. I've known people that have made seeds using a solo cup run. It was super time consuming, but was the best option to grow out as many plants as possible. 50 plants is not really a good number for an open pollination. 50 is more of a pheno hunt type number. That's a decent number of plants to make a selection from.. Not open pollinate. You can open up the gene pool with just 3 males and 3 females.. I had a friend just do 9 and 9 out doors.. That's an incredibly huge gene pool full of who knows what. The higher the number of male plants in an open pollination, the muddier the water gets.
Auto breeding is so different from photo period breeding. With autos, you have one shot at selecting a female... and the most important traits, like bud structure, bag appeal, how it smokes, will all be guess work.. You can't clone it or re grow it, or test it before you breed with it, so your making selections based solely on visual aspects in veg and early flower.. That's why it's advised to grow out as many as possible at once, regardless of style or pot size.
Thanks for advice and suggestions.
I have still various options ahead, no crossing has occured yet. My feminized cambodian landrace seeds have germinated, three litte sprouts have popped. These will be grown out and studied and smoked. I will pollinate and use the seeds of the best female. I will try clones and vegging the mother. The auto father is not decided yet. I am unsure of the ruderalis as it is such a weak ass plant.. The rudi seeds have not popped yet. I have however sown some regular autos, hoping for a male to show. Emerald triangle's lemon haze and headlights kush. Been impressed with those from earlier grows. I also have a three weeks old blueberry headband auto hopefully soon showing its gender.
First I was planning on using something as pure as possible and not a multihybrid with all sorts of flavors and phenos, but I don"t have any male pure sativa auto. I also guess by backcrossing several times and selecting phenos along the way I might be able to remove any Purple bubbaish indica traits that I don"t want in my Cambodian landrace auto.
Chimera told me it doesn"t matter which auto I use if I only want to introgress one trait, the auto gene. Done correctly, the one trait can be introgressed through repeated backcrossing, leaving the other traits behind. So I can do this with the intention of only adding the auto trait to the cambo gene pool, knowing it works in theory. But most likely I will mess up at some stage and other traits tag along. I would rather it be some haze x lemon og x NL then some meager ruderalis..
I also have six tiny Kc45 seedlings stretching towards the led. Those are regular and might give me a male.
But I am very sceptical of the strain after reading all available feedback on various forums. Seems they are not fully auto..
Wonder if they are simply f1s? Kc45 is described as 50/50 ruderalis and brazilian sativa. If they were guaranteed fully auto, a huge brazilian sativa would be great auto donor for the Cambodian mother!
I will see if any Kc45 autoflower. Guess they are less of an optimal candidate in the end..
If I only had pollen from a male cambodian! It would make repeated pollination easier, just using collected pollen on the shorter flowering auto generations, and I could test the female auto candidates for potency after harvesting their seeds.
I have twenty seeds of Mekong haze. Pure cambodian landrace from delta 9 Labs. Regular. Might give me a male. If they would just germinate.. 12 seeds in water for three days..changing water each day. Nothing. Not counting on these.
Cannot get hold of gibberellic acid. Some suggested citric acid and laktase. But it might not be a case of a hard shell or protective layer, it might just be that the seeds are just dead, too old.. Need some advice before soaking the last eight.
Someone Said these Mekong haze had poor germination from the start, so they were pulled. Can that be a possible characteristic of a tropical sativa, that the seeds have poor germination in general, regardless of age? I was hoping that if I can get one or two seeds to germinate, the strain will be saved, as it is revived, and especially if crossed with new and fresh genetics?
I have still various options ahead, no crossing has occured yet. My feminized cambodian landrace seeds have germinated, three litte sprouts have popped. These will be grown out and studied and smoked. I will pollinate and use the seeds of the best female. I will try clones and vegging the mother. The auto father is not decided yet. I am unsure of the ruderalis as it is such a weak ass plant.. The rudi seeds have not popped yet. I have however sown some regular autos, hoping for a male to show. Emerald triangle's lemon haze and headlights kush. Been impressed with those from earlier grows. I also have a three weeks old blueberry headband auto hopefully soon showing its gender.
First I was planning on using something as pure as possible and not a multihybrid with all sorts of flavors and phenos, but I don"t have any male pure sativa auto. I also guess by backcrossing several times and selecting phenos along the way I might be able to remove any Purple bubbaish indica traits that I don"t want in my Cambodian landrace auto.
Chimera told me it doesn"t matter which auto I use if I only want to introgress one trait, the auto gene. Done correctly, the one trait can be introgressed through repeated backcrossing, leaving the other traits behind. So I can do this with the intention of only adding the auto trait to the cambo gene pool, knowing it works in theory. But most likely I will mess up at some stage and other traits tag along. I would rather it be some haze x lemon og x NL then some meager ruderalis..
I also have six tiny Kc45 seedlings stretching towards the led. Those are regular and might give me a male.
But I am very sceptical of the strain after reading all available feedback on various forums. Seems they are not fully auto..
Wonder if they are simply f1s? Kc45 is described as 50/50 ruderalis and brazilian sativa. If they were guaranteed fully auto, a huge brazilian sativa would be great auto donor for the Cambodian mother!
I will see if any Kc45 autoflower. Guess they are less of an optimal candidate in the end..
If I only had pollen from a male cambodian! It would make repeated pollination easier, just using collected pollen on the shorter flowering auto generations, and I could test the female auto candidates for potency after harvesting their seeds.
I have twenty seeds of Mekong haze. Pure cambodian landrace from delta 9 Labs. Regular. Might give me a male. If they would just germinate.. 12 seeds in water for three days..changing water each day. Nothing. Not counting on these.
Cannot get hold of gibberellic acid. Some suggested citric acid and laktase. But it might not be a case of a hard shell or protective layer, it might just be that the seeds are just dead, too old.. Need some advice before soaking the last eight.
Someone Said these Mekong haze had poor germination from the start, so they were pulled. Can that be a possible characteristic of a tropical sativa, that the seeds have poor germination in general, regardless of age? I was hoping that if I can get one or two seeds to germinate, the strain will be saved, as it is revived, and especially if crossed with new and fresh genetics?
Well, I have come a bit further now, so a little update.
The Kc45 were confirmed on icmag to be f1, as I suspected. My plants were awesome. I grew them all out 12/12 from seed, guessing they wouldn't flower on me with less dark time. So I grew them as photos alongside the Cambodian landrace and a Y Griega. They grew huge. Pure sativa in pheno and in high. Outgrew by far the cambo and the y griega. Very pleased with them. I intercrossed them to get f2s. The f2s were put in my veg chamber to find the autos. None shown up yet. They outgrow the veg chamber before flowering. I keep removing and adding more f2s, hoping to find autoflowering phenos.
I started with twelve, thinking 1/4 will auto according to simple punnet square theory, so I hoped for one or two out of those 12. Works out differently in real life.. After a month they are too big, and no sign of preflowers, so half went outdoors behind some bushes in the backyard. New ones in. Still no preflowers. How much do I need to wait before preflowers if they are auto? The narrow leaf phenos are soon two months old, guess they are heterozygous or photo. The broad leaf phenos obviously have auto inheritance, but after a month they should show preflowers, no? I have no room in the flowering chamber to interbreed these f2 kc45s to make f3s, so I will keep on replacing the f2s in the veg chamber on a 19/5 light schedule. Damn, I'm up to 18 plants by now and still no auto showing..
The Cambodian mother has just been trimmed and put into reveg with the kc45s.
I have seven beautiful f1s flowering now, all females. Just added three more, hoping for a male to make f2s. I pollinated a branch on two of them, just in case, with the same auto pollen used to make f1. So those will at least give me some fully auto f2 to backcross to the cambo mother. Seems I will be doing as you suggested, Disburped!
Backcrossing to the auto before bx to photo. In theory this increases the auto input, but hopefully I can find phenos that look more like the landrace anyway. If a male f1 shows up eventually, I will use it to make f2s.
The Mekong haze seeds are all gone. None germed. Seems those seeds were especially poor, almost noone has been able to germ these. I actually have one seed that sprouted after putting it in fresh earth worm castings. Had to build a worm bin just for that final germination attempt. Amazingly it worked, and at least I have a functioning worm bin for future soil amendment. Others have managed to sprout Mekong haze seeds though, and the sprouts didn't make it. So I'm not counting on this little seedling to survive the next 20+ weeks..
I have soaked three siberian ruderalis seeds today. I'll grow them outdoors to harvest pollen and do a seed run. I want to pollenate the cambo with this ruderalis after all, as it seems like a great candidate for a cambodian auto cross, except for the meager potency. It looks great on photos. Very tall and sativa in structure, foxtails, narrow leaves and lots of trichomes. Will be interesting to see how they grow out, and whether they will finish in my climate started this late. If they grow taller than my other outdoors autos, and if they do well in my climate, I think they are worth giving a shot as auto gene donor. They will probably need to be worked a bit over the years to bring up potency, but this is an ongoing project with no time limit.
So that's the update, sorry for the long post, lots of things learned, not so much achieved yet, but a lot of fun nonetheless!
The Kc45 were confirmed on icmag to be f1, as I suspected. My plants were awesome. I grew them all out 12/12 from seed, guessing they wouldn't flower on me with less dark time. So I grew them as photos alongside the Cambodian landrace and a Y Griega. They grew huge. Pure sativa in pheno and in high. Outgrew by far the cambo and the y griega. Very pleased with them. I intercrossed them to get f2s. The f2s were put in my veg chamber to find the autos. None shown up yet. They outgrow the veg chamber before flowering. I keep removing and adding more f2s, hoping to find autoflowering phenos.
I started with twelve, thinking 1/4 will auto according to simple punnet square theory, so I hoped for one or two out of those 12. Works out differently in real life.. After a month they are too big, and no sign of preflowers, so half went outdoors behind some bushes in the backyard. New ones in. Still no preflowers. How much do I need to wait before preflowers if they are auto? The narrow leaf phenos are soon two months old, guess they are heterozygous or photo. The broad leaf phenos obviously have auto inheritance, but after a month they should show preflowers, no? I have no room in the flowering chamber to interbreed these f2 kc45s to make f3s, so I will keep on replacing the f2s in the veg chamber on a 19/5 light schedule. Damn, I'm up to 18 plants by now and still no auto showing..
The Cambodian mother has just been trimmed and put into reveg with the kc45s.
I have seven beautiful f1s flowering now, all females. Just added three more, hoping for a male to make f2s. I pollinated a branch on two of them, just in case, with the same auto pollen used to make f1. So those will at least give me some fully auto f2 to backcross to the cambo mother. Seems I will be doing as you suggested, Disburped!
Backcrossing to the auto before bx to photo. In theory this increases the auto input, but hopefully I can find phenos that look more like the landrace anyway. If a male f1 shows up eventually, I will use it to make f2s.
The Mekong haze seeds are all gone. None germed. Seems those seeds were especially poor, almost noone has been able to germ these. I actually have one seed that sprouted after putting it in fresh earth worm castings. Had to build a worm bin just for that final germination attempt. Amazingly it worked, and at least I have a functioning worm bin for future soil amendment. Others have managed to sprout Mekong haze seeds though, and the sprouts didn't make it. So I'm not counting on this little seedling to survive the next 20+ weeks..
I have soaked three siberian ruderalis seeds today. I'll grow them outdoors to harvest pollen and do a seed run. I want to pollenate the cambo with this ruderalis after all, as it seems like a great candidate for a cambodian auto cross, except for the meager potency. It looks great on photos. Very tall and sativa in structure, foxtails, narrow leaves and lots of trichomes. Will be interesting to see how they grow out, and whether they will finish in my climate started this late. If they grow taller than my other outdoors autos, and if they do well in my climate, I think they are worth giving a shot as auto gene donor. They will probably need to be worked a bit over the years to bring up potency, but this is an ongoing project with no time limit.
So that's the update, sorry for the long post, lots of things learned, not so much achieved yet, but a lot of fun nonetheless!
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