polyploidy in autos?

[irie nesta]

hello everyone here,

first time poster, so far i learned a lot about autos by just reading this very informative forum, thanks heaps to everyone involved! folks are so helpful and enthusiastic here...

i've had 3 grows so far, one outdoor, one out/in combined and one (micro) indoor on soil. my strain is some lowryder ascendent i got from a friendly farming fellow who recommended this strain for pain control. instead of the 8 weeks lowryder is supposed to take from seed to harvest, my girls take about 12-13 weeks and could easily use one or two weeks more sometimes. the yield is not exceptional but i 'm very happy with the result. pheno seems to be stable (but hold that thought!), they get around 12" tall and quite bushy. bud is very sweet-musky and orange, not super strong but nice & heady and very effective for pain control, in my case my back.

the last grow i started with my last 28 seeds, the plan was to keep some of the boys to pollinate some branches on outstanding girls for some fresh seeds. 15 of 28 turned out male. i let some of these ripen, kept the pollen and just pollinated different branches of the juciest, strongest, bushiest female to get a handful of seeds from different daddys.

around week 3 (before sexing) i noticed something new to me. 4 (out of 28) showed a 3- or even 4-leaves-per-node growing pattern. all but one of these started normal with two cotyledons and turned to the abnormal pattern from the node 2 or 3, but one already had three cotyledons and showed the 3-pattern all the way up. apparently (at least in my case) only male plants show this pattern. i never noticed it during the last two grows, but had only about 12 seeds to start with each time.


my question is, is this real polyploidy? a ruderalis thing? a stress reaction? or just old seeds (4 years now)?
in the end it amounts to the question: are traits like this hereditary, and could this be bread into a strain? i mean on a female plant it could easily double your yield...

advice is welcome!

thanks folks for your help!

nesta

 

[The Squid]

Hey there welcome to AFN. This place rules. That is quite interesting although I am not sure about the answers you seek. If they were stored properly then the seeds would be fine for that long but come have some adverse effects I suppose. Someone else will pop in sooner or later.

 

[Zygote]

Tricotyledonous

Seedlings with three cotyledons occur sporadically in nurseries of dicotyledonous plant species, including sunflower. Researchers have documented this phenomenon in many plant species such as tomato, mustards and snapdragon. In most cases, the tricot phenotypes did not produce pure tricotyledonous progeny and the inheritance seemed complex. A sunflower mutant with three cotyledons was found in a BC3F2 population. Results of progeny tests of three consecutive generations suggested that this trait is heritable since the frequency of tricotyledonous phenotype increased from approximately 2% in the F2 generation to about 50% in the F5 generation. This peculiar phenotype could be an interesting subject for basic developmental biology study. This plant type is potentially useful for faster establishment of seedlings after planting due to having a larger leaf area in early growing stages, and serving as a morphological characteristic to distinguish cultivars.

 

[irie nesta]

thanx zygote great info, hmmm that's interesing, with 3-4 generations per year so it might take a few years, but maybe one could come up with a higher yielding tricot mutant auto strain !! that is, if it's not a purely male thing like in my case... 4 out of 28 is 14%, not bad to start with...

ps yea seeds were stored in fridge for 4 years, 100% germ rate

oh, the difference between the 3rd and the first two grows was: i used all the remaining seeds, including the very small and not-so-perfect looking ones, whereas before i always chose perfectly ripe looking seeds

 

[Zygote]

Here is a tricotyledonous castor bean “Ricinus communis” line I have been working on. I started with one tricotyledonous plant now the frequency of tricotyledonous phenotype has increased each year. I am all so working on a tricotyledonous day-neutral cannabis, which I call “the bush lines” :thumbs:

 

[irie nesta]

i read the paper on tricotyledonous sunflowers and that every generation has more tricotyledonous plants. but sunflowers (as well as ricinus) are monoecious plants, so they can self-pollinate. what about dioecious plants, wouldn't both parents have to be tricot in order to spawn tricot offspring? in my case only males showed that pheno...

anyway, i pollinated some branches with the not-really-tricot-but-3/4-leaves per node-phenos and we will see what happens. the true tricot male is still a week ot two from maturity so it might be too late for this run, but i'll keep their "spunk" for next time...

 

[Zygote]

Yes with dioecious plants you will need both parents to be tricot in order to produce tricot offspring of both sexes.
From what I have seen with tricots in dioecious is; when tricots shows up it is associated more with one sex, the same as you.
What I think is going on; is the tricotyledonous genes; the frequency is higher in one sex and lower in the other. We know that tricots in cannabis can occur as a male or as a female.

Lets say.

In a F1 or F2 generation tricotyledonous genes frequency is;
Female 0.02 %, Male 0.002 %
OR
Female 0.002 %, Male 0.02 %,
If this is true
You would need 1000 seedlings @ 0.002 %, to get 2 plants of that sex.

 

[Zygote]

Some of you may find this interesting.


You can see from the list that all crosses have (MTF/LR(F3)) as a female in common.
(MTF/LR(F3)) was a tricot. (Bush)

In Red are tricotyledonous lines
In Black are dioecious lines.



(MTF/LR (F3)) X C99 (wd F6) F1 X (MTF/LR (F3)) X WR F1 Late, Bush

MTF/LR (F3) X MF (F1) F2 Big Good, Wide plant
MTF/LR (F3) X MF (F1) F2 Goodv Big
MTF/LR (F3) X MF (F1) F2 Good
MTF/LR (F3) X MF (F1) F2
MTF/LR (F3) X MF (F1) F2 Small, Fat ,Very Good, Bush.

(MTF/LR (F3) X (MF (F1)) X (MTF/LR (F3) X WR) F1 Small Good
(MTF/LR (F3) X (MF (F1)) X (MTF/LR (F3) X WR) F1 Good
(MTF/LR (F3) X (MF (F1)) X (MTF/LR (F3) X WR) F1 Big, Good Bush

(MTF/LR(F3)) X WR F2 Big, Very Good!
(MTF/LR (F3)) X WR F2 Big
(MTF/LR (F3)) X WR F2 Small
(MTF/LR (F3)) X WR F2 Small
(MTF/LR (F3)) X WR F2 Good Bush
(MTF/LR (F3)) X WR F2 Big Bush

MTF/LR (F4)) X WR F2 Bush
MTF/LR (F4)) X WR F2 1.ft Bush

 

[irie nesta]

hi zy, sorry but not quite sure how to read your list... just that you used MTF/LR (F3) as the mother every time.

but that's good to know that you are actually working on a tricot day-neutral (meaning auto, right?) variety. how long have you been doing this, and have you come to some decent percentage of tricot seedlings?

and i guess you meant 'black are dicotyledonous' and not 'dioecious'?

 

[irie nesta]

zy, if i understand it correctly than you have both tricot parents in your line, but from different varieties? maybe there is a way to force it, like trying to create polyploid seeds with colchicine?

i've seen some weird pics of polyploids like this one

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35802240@N08/3349844677/in/photostream

and a friend told me over the weekend that in the 90s he used to have some bushweed seeds that produced about 1 in 5 tricot and even tetracot (or at least with 3 or 4 leaves per node, he didn't remember about the cotylodons) but they hermied a lot and were not really grade A product

but here we have it: selfpollination over probably many generations, and you get 20% mutant offspring...