Live Stoner Chat Hollow Stems

[seraphim19]

ok here it is, I have just done some reading and ended up with more questions than answers!

Please check this out and tell me if I am baked!

I was just discussing hollow stems and the general consensus was that hollow stemmed plants produced more thc. I found this interesting as I had been told it was caused by a silicone deficiency so I followed a link to an article on breeding by dj short as I had to know for sure if I was given bad information. now I am thinking everyone was wrong. the only thing I am pretty sure of right now is that hollow/solid stems are genetic.

Here is the dj short link:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2788.html

it quoted Michael Starks book marijuana potency and said

"The next criteria for elimination is borrowed from Michael Starks' book, Marijuana Potency, and involves stem structure. Large, hollow main stems are sought while pith-filled stems are eliminated. Backed by years of observation, I agree that hollow stems do seem to facilitate THC production."

so I then read Michael Starks comments directly from his book Marijuana Chemistry Genetics Potency and Processing.

I found a picture and the statement about stems that was confusing as the text didn't marry up to the picture. it said that fibre varieties had hollow stems and high thc varieties had solid stems but the picture had them illustrated the other way round. my first point of confusion

So seeing that the statement was directly quoted from " plant science bulletin vol. 35 1975 " I tried looking for the original research and I found that volume 35 came out in 1989. second point of confusion

so I then began trawling through the issues in 1975 to see if any of the text or pictures were in these and success!

I found that in volume 21 issue 3 the same picture and text was there but the picture was a mirror image. I read through the text and became sure a mistake had been made.

so what I ask is that you have a look at Michael starks book viewable here:

http://www.madchat.fr/esprit/textur...uana_Chemistry-Michael_Starks_2nd_edition.pdf

you will find the relevant text and picture on page 26 of the pdf or page 19 by book page number

then compare with the plant science bulletin volume 23 issue 3 I believe it was lifted from, viewable here :

http://www.botany.org/plantsciencebulletin/psb-1975-21-3.php

and I also read the the four paragraphs above the picture in the plant science bulletin and this seemed to also contradict Michael Starks.
In addition it identified the hollow stemmed plants as sativa and the solid stemmed plants as indica

So please tell me am I baked, have we all been believing the wrong things for years, is one or more of these sites an unreliable source of information or just share your opinion.

 

[A4]

So it appears that the picture is truly mirrored and the text is referencing the wrong stem. In the original it does point out that the hollow stem were more for production uses as it allowed for more energy to be carried into the production of fiber. If you consider that Short as well as most other breeders were looking for high production, not just of fiber but I would assume that production would also correspond with flowering as well, it would make sense that they were crossing them to get the best characteristics. The only thing I can assume is that when they copied the book for web access the pictures were inverted and Short actually had a paper copy that was true to the picture. Does that make sense? I am pretty stoned right now. I will reread this tomorrow and it will probably sound stupid but at the moment makes perfectly good sense to me.

 

[Seymore BudSwell]

I'm pretty ripped right now too, but I think it made sense:smokebuds:

 

[seraphim19]

I am now convinced that mistakes have been made. There is no scientific evidence that i could find to support this theory but equally it cannot be dismissed. What i am trying to say is that it seems this is just a theory and cannot be stated as fact.

I have been up all night reading and here are my reasons for saying there is no proof that the hollow stemmed plants are carriers of higher thc

reason 1 : in the plant science bulletin i read the text below and it says in a nutshell the fibre variety has a hollow stem and the narcotic variety has a solid stem.

Lamarck was apparently only vaguely aware that the distinction he was drawing in Cannabis reflected the fact that this genus, through domestication, has been subjected to intensive disruptive selection, which has produced two kinds of plant. On the one hand, plants have been domesticated for the valuable phloem fibres in the bast. To maximize quality and obtainability of these fibres, man has selected plants which are tall, relatively unbranched, with long internodes, and with a relatively hollow stem (Fig. :3).

Lamarck termed such plants C. sativa. Such domesticated plants have been characteristicly grown in Europe, northern Asia, and North America. "Wild" plants of such northern areas of the world (Fig. 4) tend to be somewhat similar, either because they have escaped back to wild existence from cultivated fibre strains, or because they have been influenced by hybridization with such domesticated strains.

In contrast, man has also selected cannabis plants for the ability to produce an inebriant. Cannabis synthesizes a resin in epidermal glands which are abundant on the leaves and flowering parts of the plant (Fig. 3). This resin comprises a class of terpenoid chemicals called the cannabinoids. Two are of particular importance: the non-intoxicant cannabidiol (CBD) and the highly intoxicant L 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), shown in Fig. 6. Pre-dominance of CBD characterizes the resin of fibre strains, and also strains selected for the valuable oil content of the fruits (achenes). Predominance of THC characterizes "narcotic" strains of Cannabis. Drug strains do not exhibit features related to harvesting the fibre. They are often fairly short, possess short internodes, are highly branched, and have comparatively woody stems (Fig. 3). It
was this type of plant that Lamarck named C. indica. Such plants are characteristic of southern Asia and Africa where Cannabis has been used for millenia as a source of the drug. "Wild" plants of such relatively southern areas of the world tend to be similar, either because they have escaped back to wild existence from drug strains, or because they have been influenced by hybridization with such domesticated strains.
seeds which germinate comparatively slowly and irregularly, have comparatively well developed abscission zones, and have attenuated bases capable of easily launching the achenes away from the plant. The latter features are obviously related to the needs for dispersal of wild plants. Additionally, the fruits of the wild plants are covered with a papery material which produces a mottled or marbled appearance, which Janischevsky interpreted as camou-

reason 2 : the picture above was the one causing me some confusion and once I thought about the text underneath and considered the text on its own merit without the picture to me it says that hollow is for fibre solid is for narcotic.

reason 3: here is the botany on hemp
BOTANY:

The hemp plant (Cannabis sativa L.) is an herbaceous annual belonging to the family Cannabinaceae. Among most botanists it is considered the only species in the genus Cannabis. As the plants mature a rigid, woody stem develops ranging in height from 1 to over 5 meters (3 to 19 feet). Uncrowded plants have many spreading branches, and the central stalk can grow 30 to 60 millimeters (1 to 2 inches) in diameter. When grown in thick stands, hemp stems are unbranched and without foliage except near the top and range from 6 to 20 millimeters (1/4 to 3/4 inch) in diameter. Stems of most varieties are hollow. Leaves are palmately compound with 5 to 11 pointed, serrate leaflets 50 to 150 millimeters (2 to 6 inches) long and 10 to 20 millimeters (3/8 to 3/4 inch) wide (Dewey, 1913). In light, well-drained soils primary hemp roots can reach depths of 2 to 2.5 meters (6.5 to 8 feet), and secondary root branches may grow 60 to 80 centimeters (2 to 2.5 feet) below the soil surface (Bocsa and Karus, 1998).

reason 4 : I have done some research on industrial hemp though the ages. A characteristic of hemp is that most varieties have hollow stems and i have also found that the early hemp was used for rope, clothing, fuel and food(the seeds were cooked and eaten) as far back as 2800 B.C.
In 1537 Discorides named the plant "cannabis sativa"and wrote of its uses as cordage and medicinal properties.
so from this it appears that hollow stemmed cannabis was used for both purposes and the hollow nature was simply a characteristic of the sativa variety.here is a link to the article from the oregon state university that contained the staments for reasons 3 and 4

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/html/sb/sb681/ its an interesting read

I am still researching this subject so if anyone has any scientific proof one way or the other please let me know as this is driving me mad now

 

[evol]

I have grown 100% indica with hollow stems and I'm sure many others have also. so it really can't be exclusive to sativa. I think its not actual FACT but just a widely accepted belief that hollow stems are good/best from many years of many growers experience.

 

[seraphim19]

I just saw a paper copy of michael starks book and the picture was wrong, the book is also littered with incorrect references and as such i now view the whole book to be flawed as i have no faith in any of the claims and i feel the need to check every one of these claims against the original info which is hard when he is constantly giving the wrong source.

 

[seraphim19]

I am planning some scientific research in the search for truth

within the next two months(once i have space) i will be putting down 20 - 50 plants of the same strain in the hope that i will get some with a hollow stem and some with solid stems.

i will then grow these out under identical conditions. after this i will test the bud harvested for thc and see if the hollow stem, solid stem or neither have a higher thc production.

At this point i think it may be the only way to get anywhere near fact

 

[JM]

make sure to provide enough boron to rule out boron deficincies...

 

[seraphim19]

I have had quite a few deficiencies in the past but I have never had a boron deficiency.
I will however be on the lookout for it once I start my little experiment, and if I see any signs of it I will discount the affected plants from the thc testing

 

[JM]

I dont mean to insult your growing techniques or intelligence... I just know hollow stems in a lot of vegetables are a result of a boron deficiency... I too have had both hollow and non-hollow Canna as well... I am curious to see your experiment results... :gthumb: