Dimmer switch on LED lighting

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I'm considering the Vipar KS3000 for my 3x3 tent.

I like the idea of the dimming feature to save on electricity but I'm not certain how it is used for autoflowers.

I haven't used an LED since years ago with the purple light and no dimmer.

Any tips are appreciated.
It has a 25, 50, 75, and 100 percent settings.
 
Set the light at a height that gives even coverage, then adjust the dimmer to give the right amount of DLI for your plants stage.

You still need to watch the leaves and turn it down if the plant is ready for bed(leaves droop)
 
I'm considering the Vipar KS3000 for my 3x3 tent.

I like the idea of the dimming feature to save on electricity but I'm not certain how it is used for autoflowers.

I haven't used an LED since years ago with the purple light and no dimmer.

Any tips are appreciated.
It has a 25, 50, 75, and 100 percent settings.
A good place to start is to use the settings recommended by the manufacturer. The setting for seedlings is good but their numbers for veg are low and their numbers for flower are based on photos.

Light falling on plants is measured in "mols". There's lots of info about how to calculate the number of mols and if you hit this link, you'll find more accurate PPFD charts about your light.
 
I tried to ask that question with the people at Migrow because I have one of those array pro 4 lights.
His answer was just turn the lights up full blast and set it at the recommended heights and adjust if you see plant stress!
I have not returned that message yet but that was obviously for a photo plant. Plus the fact that they obviously don't even consider the DLI Factor because at those heights that is Way beyond the recommended DLI for autoflowers of 40 to 50 DLI.
But the main question is with these dimmer switches along with the recommended DLI what does it matter what height or strength that you set your light on as long as you're at the recommended DLI? For instance in the summer you're much better off setting your strength at 75% and setting the canopy level to where you're at your recommended DLI versus in the winter cranking it up to 100% to get the extra heat out of the driver and adjusting the light as necessary to the canopy. Do you think that you would get the same light penetration to the lower Bud sites running your light at 75%, but closer to the canopy versus running the light at 100% and farther away from the canopy to achieve the proper DLI?
 
I tried to ask that question with the people at Migrow because I have one of those array pro 4 lights.
His answer was just turn the lights up full blast and set it at the recommended heights and adjust if you see plant stress!
I have not returned that message yet but that was obviously for a photo plant. Plus the fact that they obviously don't even consider the DLI Factor because at those heights that is Way beyond the recommended DLI for autoflowers of 40 to 50 DLI.
That's surprising. Shane (Torpey?) puts a lot of resources into his videos and he reviews products that he doesn't sell so I get the impression that he really is working to "spread the good word". Why wouldn't he take the time to put together a few simple sentences about using his lights? The irony is that the Migro array is a hell of a light in terms of uniformity. It's not a powerhouse light that someone would use with CO2 but that 4 panel array is superb for a 2' x 4' growing autos in a non-CO2 environment.

But the main question is with these dimmer switches along with the recommended DLI what does it matter what height or strength that you set your light on as long as you're at the recommended DLI? For instance in the summer you're much better off setting your strength at 75% and setting the canopy level to where you're at your recommended DLI versus in the winter cranking it up to 100% to get the extra heat out of the driver and adjusting the light as necessary to the canopy. Do you think that you would get the same light penetration to the lower Bud sites running your light at 75%, but closer to the canopy versus running the light at 100% and farther away from the canopy to achieve the proper DLI?
Good question and there's no "right answer".

There are two factors at play. One is the amount of light falloff as the distance to the target increases from the source. The other has to do with how the light is designed to illuminate the canopy ("uniformity"). Check out the lights at ppfdcharts.com and you'll see that at very close distances, the PPFD is higher than it is when the hang heights higher but the uniformity is lower. The change in height vs the change in uniformity follows a curve. I've mapped out the curve for my Growcraft X3 and 16" is a good height for my set up.

Uniformity is on the Y (vertical) axis and hang height (in inches) is on the X axis. A 16" hang height works well for my tent but I've ended up at about 14" because of plant height vs tent height.


1654326420705.png



The Migro has a much steeper curve meaning that it's more uniform at lower power levels and the KS 3000, as I recall, is as good or better - both are excellent.

Back to your question 75% or 100% - the higher the light is above the canopy (the greater the hang height), the more uniform the coverage will tend to be. So, why not raise it to 36" and crank up the watts? Well, you might not have a tall enough grow space, you might not want to spend the $$ on the extra electricity, and you might not want to drive your light at 100% because it shortens the lifespan of the light and you've got to deal with the heat from the LED's and the heat from the driver.

For me, I'm running my X3 for two Gorilla Glue autos in late flower. Hang height is about 14" (I haven't measured it in some time) and I'm running the light at 255 watts out of 330 or about 77%. That's giving me a good PPFD reading, the light bars are 95°± and the driver is about 105° meaning that light will last a long, long time.

Long explanation for "I dunno".

Penetration - There's no concept of "penetration" to a light - photons go until they're absorbed. Within a leaf, Bruce Bugbee shows how blue and red photons are absorbed more quickly than green photons but pretty much all of the photons hitting the surface of a leaf are absorbed. Sure you can turn it up to 11 and push enough photons so they penetrate the leaf but pretty soon, you'll damage the leaf.

Key point - there is no usable PAR in the shadow of that leaf. There's measurable PAR in the interior but no usable PAR. Where that comes into play is that the "light compensation point" for cannabis is 63 µmols. This means that if a leaf is getting > 63 µmols, it will photosynthesize at a rate higher than the rate at which it consumes energy from the rest of the plant. In the case of checking the canopy, anything in there that's not 63 µmols is a loss from the perspective of photosynthesis. So "penetration", in terms of a light getting photons through the top leaves and making that leaf a net gain to the plant, in terms of photosynthesis, does not happen.

If there's a gap in the canopy, an opening, photons will continue on their merry way until they're absorbed, either by air, a leaf, or the top of the res. Light intensity falls off very rapidly (the inverse square law) so, even if there's nothing in between the top of the canopy and a leaf 2' below the canopy, the amount of PAR available to that leaf 2' away is very low. My plants have some gaps in them - I can see the light hitting the top of the res so I know there's a hole in the canopy. I'll take some readings tomorrow to see just how drastic the drop off is.

Back to 75% power or 100% power with different hang heights - there are a handful of variables so there's more than one right answer. Uniformity is an issue (uniformity tends to increase as you move the light up), and the reflective walls of a tent help, but, per the info at ppfdcharts, it's a tradeoff between input power and hang height. Moving a light up even a few inches requires a significant change in wattage to get the same amount of photons to the canopy. The "right" answer really depends on what factors are the most important.
 
I tried to ask that question with the people at Migrow because I have one of those array pro 4 lights.
His answer was just turn the lights up full blast and set it at the recommended heights and adjust if you see plant stress!
I have not returned that message yet but that was obviously for a photo plant. Plus the fact that they obviously don't even consider the DLI Factor because at those heights that is Way beyond the recommended DLI for autoflowers of 40 to 50 DLI.
But the main question is with these dimmer switches along with the recommended DLI what does it matter what height or strength that you set your light on as long as you're at the recommended DLI? For instance in the summer you're much better off setting your strength at 75% and setting the canopy level to where you're at your recommended DLI versus in the winter cranking it up to 100% to get the extra heat out of the driver and adjusting the light as necessary to the canopy. Do you think that you would get the same light penetration to the lower Bud sites running your light at 75%, but closer to the canopy versus running the light at 100% and farther away from the canopy to achieve the proper DLI?





 
That's surprising. Shane (Torpey?) puts a lot of resources into his videos and he reviews products that he doesn't sell so I get the impression that he really is working to "spread the good word". Why wouldn't he take the time to put together a few simple sentences about using his lights? The irony is that the Migro array is a hell of a light in terms of uniformity. It's not a powerhouse light that someone would use with CO2 but that 4 panel array is superb for a 2' x 4' growing autos in a non-CO2 environment.


Good question and there's no "right answer".

There are two factors at play. One is the amount of light falloff as the distance to the target increases from the source. The other has to do with how the light is designed to illuminate the canopy ("uniformity"). Check out the lights at ppfdcharts.com and you'll see that at very close distances, the PPFD is higher than it is when the hang heights higher but the uniformity is lower. The change in height vs the change in uniformity follows a curve. I've mapped out the curve for my Growcraft X3 and 16" is a good height for my set up.

Uniformity is on the Y (vertical) axis and hang height (in inches) is on the X axis. A 16" hang height works well for my tent but I've ended up at about 14" because of plant height vs tent height.


View attachment 1468007


The Migro has a much steeper curve meaning that it's more uniform at lower power levels and the KS 3000, as I recall, is as good or better - both are excellent.

Back to your question 75% or 100% - the higher the light is above the canopy (the greater the hang height), the more uniform the coverage will tend to be. So, why not raise it to 36" and crank up the watts? Well, you might not have a tall enough grow space, you might not want to spend the $$ on the extra electricity, and you might not want to drive your light at 100% because it shortens the lifespan of the light and you've got to deal with the heat from the LED's and the heat from the driver.

For me, I'm running my X3 for two Gorilla Glue autos in late flower. Hang height is about 14" (I haven't measured it in some time) and I'm running the light at 255 watts out of 330 or about 77%. That's giving me a good PPFD reading, the light bars are 95°± and the driver is about 105° meaning that light will last a long, long time.

Long explanation for "I dunno".

Penetration - There's no concept of "penetration" to a light - photons go until they're absorbed. Within a leaf, Bruce Bugbee shows how blue and red photons are absorbed more quickly than green photons but pretty much all of the photons hitting the surface of a leaf are absorbed. Sure you can turn it up to 11 and push enough photons so they penetrate the leaf but pretty soon, you'll damage the leaf.

Key point - there is no usable PAR in the shadow of that leaf. There's measurable PAR in the interior but no usable PAR. Where that comes into play is that the "light compensation point" for cannabis is 63 µmols. This means that if a leaf is getting > 63 µmols, it will photosynthesize at a rate higher than the rate at which it consumes energy from the rest of the plant. In the case of checking the canopy, anything in there that's not 63 µmols is a loss from the perspective of photosynthesis. So "penetration", in terms of a light getting photons through the top leaves and making that leaf a net gain to the plant, in terms of photosynthesis, does not happen.

If there's a gap in the canopy, an opening, photons will continue on their merry way until they're absorbed, either by air, a leaf, or the top of the res. Light intensity falls off very rapidly (the inverse square law) so, even if there's nothing in between the top of the canopy and a leaf 2' below the canopy, the amount of PAR available to that leaf 2' away is very low. My plants have some gaps in them - I can see the light hitting the top of the res so I know there's a hole in the canopy. I'll take some readings tomorrow to see just how drastic the drop off is.

Back to 75% power or 100% power with different hang heights - there are a handful of variables so there's more than one right answer. Uniformity is an issue (uniformity tends to increase as you move the light up), and the reflective walls of a tent help, but, per the info at ppfdcharts, it's a tradeoff between input power and hang height. Moving a light up even a few inches requires a significant change in wattage to get the same amount of photons to the canopy. The "right" answer really depends on what factors are the most important.
So it seems to me that the whole key to growing with an LED is to know your maximum limits. I thought 40 moles was the average and 50 moles was the max but now you're saying 63 moles is the maximum for cannabis
I am assuming this 63 moles applies to an autoflowers on a 20/4 light schedule
Now that I understand that putting your light at 100% isn't absolutely necessary that makes a big difference. From now on I will be doing nothing but concentrating on getting the maximum ppfd and moles per day.
Another set of instructions from Migrow says to run the light at 30% for the first 2,3 weeks of growth then start adjusting up 5% every few days till you hit 100
And then it says for plants over 3 weeks old hang it at 6 in over the canopy and set the dimmer to 100%. Check them after a few hours and look for signs of plant stress and reduced dimmer as necessary. At what age should an autoflower be aimed towards 63 moles per day? By following these instructions from my grow my plants seem to be very small nothing like the size that they would be underneath my old 600 HPS system. I don't think I was aggressive enough with these new plants and I should have started upping the percentage at 2 weeks or even earlier. I usually average three to four ounces per plant with my HPS system and I sure hope that this new LED system can compete with that!
 
So it seems to me that the whole key to growing with an LED is to know your maximum limits. I thought 40 moles was the average and 50 moles was the max but now you're saying 63 moles is the maximum for cannabis
I am assuming this 63 moles applies to an autoflowers on a 20/4 light schedule
Now that I understand that putting your light at 100% isn't absolutely necessary that makes a big difference. From now on I will be doing nothing but concentrating on getting the maximum ppfd and moles per day.
Another set of instructions from Migrow says to run the light at 30% for the first 2,3 weeks of growth then start adjusting up 5% every few days till you hit 100
And then it says for plants over 3 weeks old hang it at 6 in over the canopy and set the dimmer to 100%. Check them after a few hours and look for signs of plant stress and reduced dimmer as necessary. At what age should an autoflower be aimed towards 63 moles per day? By following these instructions from my grow my plants seem to be very small nothing like the size that they would be underneath my old 600 HPS system. I don't think I was aggressive enough with these new plants and I should have started upping the percentage at 2 weeks or even earlier. I usually average three to four ounces per plant with my HPS system and I sure hope that this new LED system can compete with that!
With regards to the answer from migro his answer was "the best strategy is to give the plants as much light as possible with the least amount of energy used I would suggest hanging at the optimum hanging heights and adjusting the output to as high as possible and checking the plants for light stress if you do not see light stress keep adjusting upwards until at maximum"
 
That's surprising. Shane (Torpey?) puts a lot of resources into his videos and he reviews products that he doesn't sell so I get the impression that he really is working to "spread the good word". Why wouldn't he take the time to put together a few simple sentences about using his lights? The irony is that the Migro array is a hell of a light in terms of uniformity. It's not a powerhouse light that someone would use with CO2 but that 4 panel array is superb for a 2' x 4' growing autos in a non-CO2 environment.


Good question and there's no "right answer".

There are two factors at play. One is the amount of light falloff as the distance to the target increases from the source. The other has to do with how the light is designed to illuminate the canopy ("uniformity"). Check out the lights at ppfdcharts.com and you'll see that at very close distances, the PPFD is higher than it is when the hang heights higher but the uniformity is lower. The change in height vs the change in uniformity follows a curve. I've mapped out the curve for my Growcraft X3 and 16" is a good height for my set up.

Uniformity is on the Y (vertical) axis and hang height (in inches) is on the X axis. A 16" hang height works well for my tent but I've ended up at about 14" because of plant height vs tent height.


View attachment 1468007


The Migro has a much steeper curve meaning that it's more uniform at lower power levels and the KS 3000, as I recall, is as good or better - both are excellent.

Back to your question 75% or 100% - the higher the light is above the canopy (the greater the hang height), the more uniform the coverage will tend to be. So, why not raise it to 36" and crank up the watts? Well, you might not have a tall enough grow space, you might not want to spend the $$ on the extra electricity, and you might not want to drive your light at 100% because it shortens the lifespan of the light and you've got to deal with the heat from the LED's and the heat from the driver.

For me, I'm running my X3 for two Gorilla Glue autos in late flower. Hang height is about 14" (I haven't measured it in some time) and I'm running the light at 255 watts out of 330 or about 77%. That's giving me a good PPFD reading, the light bars are 95°± and the driver is about 105° meaning that light will last a long, long time.

Long explanation for "I dunno".

Penetration - There's no concept of "penetration" to a light - photons go until they're absorbed. Within a leaf, Bruce Bugbee shows how blue and red photons are absorbed more quickly than green photons but pretty much all of the photons hitting the surface of a leaf are absorbed. Sure you can turn it up to 11 and push enough photons so they penetrate the leaf but pretty soon, you'll damage the leaf.

Key point - there is no usable PAR in the shadow of that leaf. There's measurable PAR in the interior but no usable PAR. Where that comes into play is that the "light compensation point" for cannabis is 63 µmols. This means that if a leaf is getting > 63 µmols, it will photosynthesize at a rate higher than the rate at which it consumes energy from the rest of the plant. In the case of checking the canopy, anything in there that's not 63 µmols is a loss from the perspective of photosynthesis. So "penetration", in terms of a light getting photons through the top leaves and making that leaf a net gain to the plant, in terms of photosynthesis, does not happen.

If there's a gap in the canopy, an opening, photons will continue on their merry way until they're absorbed, either by air, a leaf, or the top of the res. Light intensity falls off very rapidly (the inverse square law) so, even if there's nothing in between the top of the canopy and a leaf 2' below the canopy, the amount of PAR available to that leaf 2' away is very low. My plants have some gaps in them - I can see the light hitting the top of the res so I know there's a hole in the canopy. I'll take some readings tomorrow to see just how drastic the drop off is.

Back to 75% power or 100% power with different hang heights - there are a handful of variables so there's more than one right answer. Uniformity is an issue (uniformity tends to increase as you move the light up), and the reflective walls of a tent help, but, per the info at ppfdcharts, it's a tradeoff between input power and hang height. Moving a light up even a few inches requires a significant change in wattage to get the same amount of photons to the canopy. The "right" answer really depends on what factors are the most important.
When did you progress your moles to 63 (875 PPFD)?
What is your moles readings from seedling throughout life?
 
When did you progress your moles to 63 (875 PPFD)?
What is your moles readings from seedling throughout life?
It's 63 µmols (PPFD) vs 63 mols which is a high reading for DLI. 63 µmols is the point below which a cannabis leaf is consuming more of the products of photosynthesis than it is creating during photosynthesis, ie it is a "net photosynthetic loss" to the plant. My reason for digging around for that value is to get a better understanding defoliation.

For the first few grows (I'm on grow 4 ATM), I was giving my seedlings 10, 12, maybe 15 mols. My hesitancy came from destroying a couple of sets of seeds when I started growing early last year. I just didn't want to muck things up. I read tons of info re. light levels but just didn't want to "give them too much".

When I started my current grow, I posted a message on another 420 forum and one grower said "Give them to 25 mols as soon as you can." and explained that he'd been growing that way for many years. When I checked the various docs that I've scavenged up, yup, 25 mols with right in the ballpark so that's how I've done my current grow.

If I were growing photos, I'd probably go with 45 mols in veg and then as close to 800/850 µmols in flower as I could get. That's a DLI of ≈ 35 mols, which is a lot lower than I'm giving my autos, but a lot of growers have produced a lot of great weed at 35 mols so I'm completely on board with that.

35 mols is really close to the DLI from the "light saturation point" for cannabis which is listed at 780 µmols. That may vary from strain to strain but that number checks out pretty well with what a number of YouTubers recommend, including "DeBacca University". There's a lot of self-promotion going on with that fellow but the CV that he's published indicates that he's got some formal background in plant biology so I consider his input as valid.

This is the chart from the Photone site. I've corresponded with the programmer over the last year and a half and he's been around the block, in terms of programming (I've been writing software for a living since the early 90's). I haven't asked him to cite his sources but, again, it fits into the general values that are floating around the 'net.

DLI by Growth Stage - growlightmeter.com.png


I tend to post the graphic above and this one below for discussions like this. This one is from "Chandra" - Google that name and you'll be able to download the research paper (PDF). The environment they used was CO2-enriched so the numbers are pretty high. One of my takeaways was that 25°C is a good number for me to shoot for.

Cannabis photosynthesis vs PPFD and Temp.png
 
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